@Debra-Turnbull
Mayo Clinic and Ambient Listening

I found this easier to read article. This appears to be gaining traction in the media.

The Mayo Clinic is a well respected American research hospital. There are still problems with patient consent.

@Kim-Locke

Yeah... this is in the U.S. Not sure what their privacy & consent practices are. But - something to watch out for if it comes up here.

@Chris-Johnston

I'm finding that some conferences are doing that now. Manually verify who has registered and make a decision as to who is "acceptable" to let in. I'm sure that I have been rejected in the past for declaring myself as 'other' or ' patient partner'.

I suspect that they check their registration numbers, "Oh no! we don't have enough people!", and then add on. I guess they only have so many virtual licenses.

Another thing - this conference did not have a checkbox for "patient/caregivers". We are "others". Shows you where they are at in the healthcare mindset.

@Chris-Johnston

See, I see 2 systems in play. That is to say: 1 Quality system for test & verification: aimed at approval bodies/ pre-sales quality control; the other Quality system for post-sale assurance.

The 1/10, 1/100, 1/500 is see in the QC test & verification process, and not in the deployed QA state. Once the CDS is working in healthcare - a decrease in surveillance is going to give me the hee-bee-jee-bees... unless there is a way to show stabilization over time... i.e. no drift.

I'm not sure what post-deployment surveillance is going to look like. Maybe a 'snitch line'...? Here's a thought - how the heck do you audit this thing?

And then there's the question of human resources - do you expect the physicians in the field - that already suffer from cognitive load - to actually detect and report? How realistic is that?

@Kim-Locke

Very true - what still amazes me is that they've managed to infiltrate the very conservative infrastructure of medicine so rapidly.

We're well acquainted with how reluctant the medical profession are (both individually and as a body) to move forward in any respect. Faxes are one example, the delay of 10-15 years to get research evidence into practice is another.

Yet, entire health systems are jumping on board AI technologies that are neither mature nor sufficiently tested at scale. In just a handful of years, AI projects are consuming large chunks of healthcare budgets despite the alarming lack of regulation or evidence to support efficacy or safety. While other services are squeezed, reduced or defunded, with little or no public awareness or discussion. It's an incredible and concerning feat of manipulation.

@Chris-Johnston YES! You have reminded me about this one too!

I have seen a video where the toddler is given a phone, and I have no idea what they're watching, but the child is very engaged. When the phone is taken away for a few minutes, the child screams and cries. When the phone is given to the child again, it's happy and burbling, very engaged.

This is addiction, not good for anyone. How do you break it?

@Jenna-Kedy-0 It makes me happy when there's pushback from local communities about having data centers built in their respective areas, and they manage to not have them built at all!

Data centers being built in areas that are experiencing drought just doesn't feel ethical or even right to me, and then all the problems with using a lot of water, the effects on the environment, effects on humans, and wildlife.

"BUT JOBS!" They only really hire very few people to work in these data centers, and they're only there to troubleshoot problems. Most of daily admin things can be done remotely or are automated already.

@Alies-Maybee
Thanks for sharing Alies - this really resonated on many levels. Bizarrely, I made a similar comparison to children working in mills in the Industrial Revolution on the forum just last week. It will be interesting to see the course she’s developing.

@Sandra-Holdsworth @Alies-Maybee

Thanks for checking Sandra! It’s pretty steep even for members, and membership ain’t cheap. I’m wondering if there’s a way to escalate the Patients Included initiative, particularly around affordable virtual options. It seems bizarre to me that many conferences are now offering virtual platforms as a bonus to in-person attendees and still won’t offer it to patients who can’t travel for health or financial reasons or both. 😞

@MichelleWithers

True.

Diagnostic AI will not fix the healthcare system. It is, after all, only a tool. A tool to assist clinicians get to an answer... quicker. This translates to less time the patient has to wait as a consequence of mis-diagnosis.

It will not solve long wait times. It will not solve clinician burnout (many are heading for the exits labelled "retirement"). However, if it a tool can alleviate some of a clinician's cognitive load, then I'm all for it. We - as patients / caregivers - have an active role in protecting out clinicians... else, we will lose them altogether.

I recently read an article arguing that Canada does not have a healthcare system. It has a jumbled mess of care delivery services; connected by Band-Aids... hmmm...

@Jenna-Kedy-0

Did you know the mass producer of these toys is China?

The Chinese government created laws banning these toys to children 18 yrs and under.

@Alies-Maybee We need to talk.

@Cristyana-Aloysious excellent! Disappointed I missed this.

@Chris-Johnston I was there virtually and we both won prize for Whova participation.

@Robert-Wells

Just circling back & bringing this back up as I uncover more info.

Ontario had a famous privacy breach case - I found the response from the Office of Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario:
https://www.ipc.on.ca/en/decisions/informal-resolution-high-profile-breaches/hospital-privacy-breach-involving-ai-scribes-tool
OtterAI was involved.

It turns out OtterAI is a lot more autonomous than we original thought. It will automatically access personal email lists and autonomously send emails... even if you're not aware of it. BE AWARE when/if using it.

@Chris-Johnston let me be the first to pass you a wand! ☺

@Paula-Orecklin
Interesting perspective... mix the 2 together and both will pass.

The problem with that is he will legislate himself into a corner... and then there won't be any wiggle room for when things go sideways. If you tie people's hands - then there is no flexibility when change happens. Hopefully, the legal beagles will catch this.

@Chris-Johnston thanks for sharing, I have registered.

@Kim-Locke I think healthcare providers, especially those that work in hospitals like to have binders with patient records in case the systems don’t work, the Hydro goes down or in the worst case situation, they are hacked.This way they always have access to the Patient history. I know that both my Liver team and Kidney Team have biinders for my health records.

@Alies-Maybee Alies, thanks for sharing with the PAN membership. PAN Members, you can sign out to receive their newsletter by registering here https://piccunited.org/partner-with-picc-united/

@Debra-Turnbull Love this reflection so much as this is SO real! Honestly, I feel this all the time too. Trying to hold the patient lens and system lens all at once can be hard as my brain is like… loading… buffering and those quick “fill this out now” moments are also hard as half the time I walk away like “Wait… I had more to say” Also some days I’m just not that brave too and I’ve realized that this work shouldn’t require us to be brave every single time because when I’ve felt safest in care, it wasn’t because I pushed myself to speak up as it was because someone created space for me to. That’s the difference. I love what you said about the clinician lens too as that “shock value” moment is such a two-way learning thing. I’ve definitely had moments where I’m like “oh wow, they’re learning in real time too” You’re not alone in this at all. Even this reflection; this is the kind of thinking that actually makes spaces better!

@Pat-Demo Thank you for sharing Pat! I'm wow-ed!!
28 years caring for her son and then turning that into system change is not just advocacy as that’s love in action. What hit me most is “People don’t realize the value of our lived experiences." like YES because it’s not just a story as it’s insight. My takeaway is she didn’t just navigate the system and that’s exactly the kind of impact I want to keep growing into in my own journey!

@Alies-Maybee This actually feels like a shift! For once, it’s not just more consultations as it’s giving “let’s use what we already have and actually do something” Near real-time data, collect once use many times, and a focus on trust + sovereignty is incredible. From my lived experience lens, people are tired of repeating their stories into systems that don’t connect. We need action, not another round of “tell us your thoughts.” If this Collaboratorium is really being led by folks ready to move then I’m in. Excited to see the working group opportunities as this is where it gets real!!!